Curse

Draco Hunt · Jul 14, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

This feels like an itchy old sweater.

Yes old topic

but this is a general case realy i think that atleast 90% of the guildwars comunity has had the problem of PuGs from hell.
But don't worry you will eventualy find that good PuG or a guild team that just needs one more member(can rsult in acceptence in that guild).

Don't worry be happy

Thallandor · Jul 14, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

To the OP, as mentioned by many others on the forums joining a good guild is the key towards enjoying Guild Wars and a guild that needs you to wear 15k armour and carry 100k weapons isnt neccessary a good one after all-I understand that the OP maynot mean it illterally but if he did, i feel extremely sorry for the state of affairs that has transpired to have lead this misconception.

Opeth11 · Jul 14, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Hunt

but this is a general case realy i think that atleast 90% of the guildwars comunity has had the problem of PuGs from hell.

*ahem*

I just failed the first mission on the Shing Jea Island. We died at the pets :/

Smite monks ftw!

Shadowspawn X · Jul 14, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

To the OP, as mentioned by many others on the forums joining a good guild is the key towards enjoying Guild Wars and a guild that needs you to wear 15k armour and carry 100k weapons isnt neccessary a good one after all-I understand that the OP maynot mean it illterally but if he did, i feel extremely sorry for the state of affairs that has transpired to have lead this misconception.

This advice is worthless, there are not very many good guilds out there which are why we have PUGS, it takes time and luck to find a good pve guild. You just cant jump up and find one instantaously. I only do missions with guild mates but it took a long time to get in a situation where I can log on gather guildies and get masters on any mission. Some people just arnt there yet and may never be, finding a good guild is not an easy thing to do. I remember when I started the game and PUG'd though it in Tyria it was hell, but at least then people knew the bonuses and they where obtainable. PUG reliant players these days have it even worst because chances of getting masters in a PUG are super low.

Scroz · Jul 14, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I find PUGs good as long as you know how to filter them.

Examples of bad PUGs:
1. The group has 3 or more Warriors (this usually works, as there are few places where more than 2 warriors are needed)
2. The group has all one type of profession, either all casters or all physical.
3. The group has no monks as of yet. If they haven't managed to find a monk, then how can you expect them to be good? (this only works if the outpost has a good amount of monks)
4. Attitude upon entering the group. If they just yell things like "you MM? becus other necroz sux", I doubt they have much common sense.
5. They're not sure what is going on. Sadly I've seen this before. Half the people, sometimes even the party leader, will be totally confused.

Examples of good PUGs:
1. They have a well balanced profession mixture. (not the best filter)
2. The group has monks or healers of some sort. (still not very good filter)
3. They take time to ask you about your build, figure out what you can contribute and request reasons if your build differs from the one they disire.
4. They plan what they are doing before entering the mission/explorable area.

Not all the best examples, but you get the idea. Some filters work better than others, others almost always work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

For bad PUGs, I agree with all but #3. And I'd add;
#6 - They think they need 3 monks.
#7 - They're afraid to use henchie monks when no others are avaliable.
#8 - "gogogogo"

For good PUGs:
#5 - They have a Mesmer in the group. (it doesn't mean that it's a good PUG, but it is a good sign - shows that the party has more than a cookie cutter mentality)
#6 - When you join & say "Hello" other party members actually respond!

Bad PUGs
#9 they spam invites to everyone (except mesmers and assassins) they can find (not the best way to organize a group together)
#10 they're fighting before the mission has even started (get out while you still can)
#11 the monk is demanding a fee, even though there are plenty of other monks around

Good PUGs
#7 a few of them are in a guild together (doesn't mean they are a good group, just shows that there could be some good coordination there)
#8 I've found that the friendlier and nicer the people are, the smoother the mission goes along because everyone is cooperating

For the most part PUG filtering works pretty well, so don't go into any random group and hope for the best. There are good PUGs out there, you just have to be patient

majoho · Jul 14, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

I did all but two missions with henchies, PUG suck most of the time since there's no communication or anything.

WasAGuest · Jul 14, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by nohooiam

pug pve is frustrating when you're used to organized pvp.

And PuGs are twice as aggrevating when you find PvE the only fun in the game but all but two or three friends and guildies and up and left due to nothing to do in game...

I'm with the OP though, I'm real close to unistalling the game as I have little or no desire to load it up anymore.

Henchies can not pull of all the bonuses in the missions as they are just too dumb and can't be told not too attack, stay put or even behave. And considering majority of PuGs act worse than the henchies these days, it's a lose lose.

Snowman · Jul 14, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Dude, Get into a guild with a good alliance that uses Vent or Teamspeak.

I do sympathise, I often pickup pve players into my guild who struggle with missions, but the frustration is not needed. Once you can talk someone through the basics its like a light bulb lights up in their mind and suddenly everything is so much easier.

I do hope you sort it out, there is alot GW can offer, the hunt for a good guild is often what Guildwars is about.

bulletsmile · Jul 14, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

sometimes you get on group with experienced players who has done the mission 10 times before and sometimes you don't, that's just how it is, i haven't felt it that troublesome and i really hate to give up, i'm pretty sure you are able to do every or almost every quests/mission with hench

what i find is frustrating is that most fow/uw groups leaves before we get too long, usually we do the forgemaster quests and around that time someone gotta leave, i've never been in fow for more than 2 and a half hours, i can't blame them, but it's just hard to get groups that wanna clear the whole place out or do other things than the forgemaster.

eudas · Jul 14, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Ok, I'd like to change tack a little bit and put in some reinforcing commentary about PUGs.

The most important thing is that you have to know what kind of a group you want and build it. Forming your own group is recommended, because that gives you the control to invite and kick people as needed. If you are not the group leader, then you need to be a bit more leery about the group formation as they could easily build a group that is destined for failure, or one that has members you wouldn't want to group with. Feel free, as long as the mission has not started yet, to leave at any point during the group formation phase.

Some obvious signs of people you shouldn't group with:
1) group member says "no henchies."
2) group member says "gogogogo"
3) group member acts like an irritating little kid "lolzorz"
4) group member is blatantly offensive
5) group member has an idiotic name (xXx Pwnt J00 xXx, | Masta Baita |, I Love Weed, etc)
6) group member obviously has no clue
7) group member won't discuss his build, and won't cooperate with the team
8) group member doesn't talk (this is a warning sign that they're an afk'er and are either leeching or just won't be participating enough to warrant bringing them along)
9) other miscellaneous signs of incompetence, such as not knowing what the mission is about, or asking "bonus?", repeatedly, long after the group has decided to do the bonus
10) group member is in an advanced area and is still in pre-searing/shing jea armor because they're "saving for max armor". This person will be a liability.

Really, getting a good PUG is about filtering. There are plenty of people around, and most of them are decent; it's just about filtering out the Leeroys, the afk'ers, the jackasses, the incompetent idiots, and the obnoxious kids. The people you wind up with are usually the agreeable, patient, knowledgeable non-newbie players. You can then proceed to demolish the mission, and maybe even the next 5 missions, for the Master's certification.

While you're inviting people and establishing rapport/synergy by talking to people (this also helps avoid them getting bored and leaving before you're finished putting together a group), keep an eye out towards what overall party composition you want to create. Avoid obvious pitfalls, such as 2 MM's (unless you know the mission drops a *lot* of corpses).

Keep an eye open to fill holes in the party with henchies in case you're not able to find enough of whatever class you need. An example of this is missions where there's 1 monk in the zone, 3 different groups hollering "GLF Monk", and the 1 who's there seems to be afk. You're going to want to take the 2 monk henchies for that one. There's no point in waiting around 30 minutes to find a monk, when you could've taken henchies and been *done* by then. I've done missions, and went back, and seen the same parties *still* advertising for players.

[Note that the henchie monks usually perform best when both henchie monks are present; individually, they don't seem to perform as well as they do when they are together. The total is greater than the sum of the parts, for them, at least.]

One point I'd like to elaborate on is that you need to talk to people while you're forming the party. This prevents them from getting bored and leaving; it helps you detect if they're afk'ers/leechers or immature kids, or idiots who don't know their build, or whatever; it helps you filter out the undesirables and establish rapport as a team with the good people that remain.

Sometimes you'll get good players with good builds in your party. Buddy up with them. Make friends. If you get a core group of good players in your PUG, you may be able to hold party cohesiveness together instead of the standard "get thru mission, then disband". Build a *team*. Do that, and you will probably find that most people will recognize that you've built a good team that will take them (and you) far, and will stick around. You may have to replace 1-2 people, but you'll get a lot farther this way than you will with random PUGs at every stop. At the very least, maybe you can add them to your Friends list and play with them again later.

Sometimes, you have a good group, but one stupid player. After you beat the mission, feel free to kick them. They weren't adding to the group. Replace them with someone else. What's the worst that can happen? The worst that could happen is that the replacement is just as bad. The best that can happen is that you'll have gotten an actual good player in that slot, and the team is even better than before.

So, to summarize:
1) Try to be the leader. Most people instinctively follow a good leader. (The caveat to this is: don't try to be the leader if you're a BAD leader. It's not about authority, it's about getting something done. If you already have a good leader, then be a good follower instead.)
2) Filter out the idiots. TALK TO PEOPLE. If they won't talk, you probably don't want them.
3) Focus on obtaining good players, or at least cooperative ones. Cooperative bad players can be retrained/re-educated into good players.
4) At the next possible point (usually after finishing a mission), drop the bad players, and replenish the party's supply with new members. If you can attract enough people to replace henchies, fine; if not, henchies FTW.
5) Stay calm, don't let people ruffle your feathers too much. You're in control, and you're going to build something successful for everybody. (Or, if you're not in control, have faith in your party leader to do so.)

PUGs aren't all bad. They're only as good or bad as you make them (within a certain range, of course).

Hope this helps.

eudas

felinette · Jul 14, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

now, i hardly ever do missions with random people. i go with henchman or with my guildies that are always happy to help, because i do same when someone needs help. when u playing with guildies its a copletely diffrent and better PVE experience then what you have seen so far:

Ditto. These days, I either hench or go with guildies. Occasionally we invite one or two others to go with us, and/or we fill out the group with henchies. I'm in a smallish, friendly PvE guild that's very helpful.

I've been in good and bad PUGs. All it takes is one jerk to spoil it for everyone else.

felinette · Jul 14, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Almost forgot; I don't quite agree with your #7. Some of these missions you need real monks to even out the occasional dumb action.

Nah, you can do all the missions with henchie monks. Last night, we did abaddons and hells with Lina and Mhenlo, and for hells, we only had a party of 6. Two folks dropped almost as soon as we started, but we decided to continue anyway. So it was 2 warriors, an ele, a mesmer, and our trusty monk henchies. No problems whatsoever. Our guild leader prefers using henchie monks over real monks, one of the reasons I like him.

No hanging around waiting for monks to join, and it's never hampered us in the least.

primal98 · Jul 14, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

Some obvious signs of people you shouldn't group with:
1) group member says "no henchies."
2) group member says "gogogogo"
3) group member acts like an irritating little kid "lolzorz"
4) group member is blatantly offensive
5) group member has an idiotic name (xXx Pwnt J00 xXx, | Masta Baita |, I Love Weed, etc)
6) group member obviously has no clue
7) group member won't discuss his build, and won't cooperate with the team
8) group member doesn't talk (this is a warning sign that they're an afk'er and are either leeching or just won't be participating enough to warrant bringing them along)
9) other miscellaneous signs of incompetence, such as not knowing what the mission is about, or asking "bonus?", repeatedly, long after the group has decided to do the bonus
10) group member is in an advanced area and is still in pre-searing/shing jea armor because they're "saving for max armor". This person will be a liability.

I have had people from each of those 10 points in my groups, and to tell you the truth they were more willing to stick through the tough parts then anyone else :P We actually ended off beating the missions ^_^

Now, guilds are good, but guild members arent always free to help you with all missions, they too have to play. If we are forced to the point of using Henchmen to beat the majority of missions/quests.... whats the purpose of PvE guild wars being online?

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 14, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

100% agree with eudas. That's a very insightful post.

I still think that there's more good PUGs out there than bad ones. - Going through the Factions campaign, I PUGed all the way and only got into 3 bad groups, got masters on first try 8 times, and never had to do a mission more than 4 times (only 1) to get masters on all of them. And that with PUGS.

eudas · Jul 14, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by primal98

I have had people from each of those 10 points in my groups, and to tell you the truth they were more willing to stick through the tough parts then anyone else :P We actually ended off beating the missions ^_^

Now, guilds are good, but guild members arent always free to help you with all missions, they too have to play. If we are forced to the point of using Henchmen to beat the majority of missions/quests.... whats the purpose of PvE guild wars being online?

well, any anecdotal point put out there is inevitably going to be countered by someone else's anecdotal counterpoint. that list wasn't about absolute rules, but more about statistical probabilities/trends.

eudas

Mr D J · Jul 14, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Guilds that recruit for good armor... pfft thats cheap :/ No wounder I have fissure and guildless now lol

frickett · Jul 14, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I shouldnt have to install vent or teamspeak to get into a good group or a good guild. I am here for guild wars, I am not here for other software. Lets just play.

pigdestroyer · Jul 14, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

how about actually making friends with people in your guild and do missions with them?

felinette · Jul 14, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by frickett

I shouldnt have to install vent or teamspeak to get into a good group or a good guild. I am here for guild wars, I am not here for other software. Lets just play.

I don't have vent or teamspeak. I'm in two guilds (one per account) and I've never had problems getting into a PUG. You just have to be patient and find the right fit. Most guilds want more members. Group with people and eventually you'll find yourself invited into a decent guild. The guilds I belong to only invite people they've grouped with and like, and it's not based on items, armor, or anything like that. Just that the person seems sane and is a decent player.

Michel Longshorts · Jul 14, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hand of Ruin

Mainly idiots who charge into large groups of monsters then run back to the party looking for help, now aggroing a ton of monsters for everyone. Or these stupid eles who use AoE spells in aggro-sensative areas, effectively ruining our pull and setting off a horde of angry monsters!

LEEROOOOOYYY JENKIIIIIINS!!!!!!!

*cough* sorry couldnt help myself.

If you want the honest truth from me: Guild Wars does not have an Easy Mode. Not every task can be done perfectly. Missions will not be completed every time. Where would the challenge be in that? People will make mistakes and (hopefullly) learn from them. To make a mistake, and to not learn from it, is to make another mistake.

Try doing a mission once, if fails, try again with a different group. If that continues to fail, try leading a group. Once you get frustrated, ask a guildie. As a guild officer myself I can easily ferry a guildie through a mission with my MM and rarely have a problem with doing so if Im not busy.

To the matter of leavers:
Submit my sudgestion to AE if you wish. Realise that the vast majority of so called "leavers" are the result of a disconnection. In any other MMO, you could usually log right back in, find the group was waiting for you. Join back up and continue. THE DESIGN OF GW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED TO FIT THIS. In my oppinion on login you should be prompted to start in the outpost or the previous zone instance you were in(with your group). This would save lots of players, lots of hassle.

Conclusion: GW has hard missions for a challenge. Everyone is not perfect. Missions will fail. If they do fail, dont whine just because you cant have your way and you dont live in a perfect world.